A key lesson for leaders from SAP’s CEO: ‘You cannot solve everything with technology.’

“What you have to admit, even as a technology CEO, is that you cannot transform a company just by implementing new technology. This is key,” said Klein. “You have to change oftentimes how people work, how we code software, how we deliver software, how we sell. And then it’s a cultural change.”

Listen to the episode or read the transcript below.

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Transcript

Diane Brady: Leadership Next is powered by the folks at Deloitte who, like me, are exploring the changing roles of business leadership and how CEOs are navigating this change.

Welcome to Leadership Next, the podcast about the changing rules of business leadership. I’m Diane Brady.

Everyone talks about digital transformation, but how does a company that enables transformation in others transform itself, especially if you’re a European giant that has to navigate a shifting regulatory climate, geopolitical risk, multiple cultures, and of course, an ever more competitive landscape? I spoke to Christian Klein, the CEO of SAP, about what he’s done in the past five years, what he sees ahead, and how he’s trying to shift the culture as one of the youngest CEOs of the Fortune 500. Take a listen. 

[Interview begins.]

Christian, thanks for joining us. 

Christian Klein: Yes, thanks for having me. 

Brady: So you are now more than five years into this job. So let’s walk back a little bit and start by telling people where is SAP today versus where it was when you came in. When you came into the CEO role, what did you want to do? 

Klein: I mean, when you look at the brand of SAP, looking where the business was five years back. Indeed, I mean, SAP was probably known for developing great EIPs [enterprise integration patterns],supply chains, HR, finance, but also SAP was a little bit known like, Oh, I have to install this software and I hope nothing breaks when I install it. It’s complex. It’s also complex business, which we run. I mean, supply chain, manufacturing. And of course I felt, yeah, also by working with customers and also the good piece is I also worked with our own software. That helps. So my job before was as the chief operating officer to transform SAP. I said, Hey, there’s something right with cloud. And I see, you know, you can have faster speed of innovation, you have more agility to consume new innovations. So I thought, Hey, coming in, it’s time to change the strategy, to change our business model. And here we are, I guess, you know, five years later. I mean, there were big question marks. Will SAP make it? There was a share price drop when I took some profit away because the change of the business model means you need to change the financials of the company. But here we are. And I would say today there is a lot of confidence. Rightfully, customers are happy. Still of course, for the people, change always means uncertainty. I don’t want to underplay that. I mean, there’s a lot of over-communication you have to do. But so far so good. So I’m very happy how it turned out. 

Brady: Well, and we’ll talk about cloud AI transformation. I want to start with that piece of transformation because it’s one of those terms that everybody’s using right now. It can mean a lot of things. It could mean laying off a lot of people. It can mean digitizing your operations. What did it mean for you when you were in that role basically spearheading transformation?

Klein: I mean, look, on the one hand side, with our technology, we are helping customers to transform. I mean, I was just in Houston talking about renewable energy and how to transform oil and gas. When you’re working in retail, it’s about omnichannel and resiliency and supply chains and technology is key to that. But what you have to admit, even as a technology CEO, is you cannot transform a company just, you know, by implementing new technology. This is key. But what you also have to do is, you have to change how oftentimes how people work, how we code software, how we deliver software, how we sell. And the same is true for all of the industries in some shape or form. And then it’s a cultural change. It’s also about the openness to mindset and to really do things differently. And that is what you should not underestimate. So also what SAP is doing, we are not only selling anymore, you know, our technology, which is great. We are having an offering where we say, Hey, we help you, we help you in, changing your business model. We have 400,000 customers. We’re going to tell you what worked really well in your industry and we tell you what didn’t really work and we give you this insights into how others did this transformation. You know, from a business perspective, from a people perspective, from a change management perspective, and then we implement, create technology. And I guess this was very key for me always. And actually I have to say, I learned a lot on this, on this journey, and that’s also what I share with our customers. I look at it holistically. You cannot solve everything with technology. Technology is key, but not everything. 

Brady: You know, one thing that people who are listening would not realize is you are relatively young for the role. You’re like an older millennial. Is that the right way to put it? 

Klein: That’s the right way to put it, yeah. 

Brady: And so coming in really in your late thirties to this, do you think that made any difference? 

Klein: I mean, look, people, especially in Germany, sometimes they said, it’s just a good thing that Christian always was with SAP. I started as an intern carrying monitors and not a flat screen. So, I mean, the heavy ones in the basement of our headquarter from one room to another. That’s how I started my career. And then I have seen the company from all facets. I was here in New York as as a student. New world for me coming from Heidelberg to New York. I mean, but I learned a lot. I learned how to [do] marketing. Then I moved on to SuccessFactors, cloud. I was in finance. I was in development. And I have to say, while, you know, some people maybe criticized it, that I only have seen SAP, I have seen it from so many ways, from so many perspectives, I know the culture, I know the people, and I’d say it would help, it’s helped me tremendously. And look at just what happened at Nike. I heard, you know, the new CEO also started as an intern. 

Brady: Didn’t Satya, Satya Nadella…

Klein: Satya, yeah, and…

Brady: But that’s not an age issue. That’s a familiarity issue. I think almost generationally as well, though you come from a different mindset. 

Klein: Yeah, it could be. And but of course I was pretty young. I have to, I’m still, I guess, the youngest one in the decks. But, you know, of course I get at a lot of experience. And I guess what you always need to understand as a CEO, when I would come to the office this morning, I would say, Hey, I’ve known everything I have seen everything. I was saying that would actually be my biggest failure. So I guess, you know, just eagerness to learn new things no matter what age, I guess is super important. And then, of course, I collected a lot of experiences over my years, 24 years at SAP. This is not nothing. And then it’s also about staying a little bit humble and also ask yourself or ask the team, how was this podcast? How did I do this keynote? Was this the right pitch on the strategy? Asking my product engineers are we on the right track? Give me some feedback. I guess, you know, having this humbleness and also learn every day also makes you stay young in in another way and yeah, yeah. 

Brady: Look I some of the youngest people I know are CEOs in their sixties and seventies, so age is definitely a mindset. So Christian, SAP is the largest European software company. Talk about the context of being in Europe and the European business climate. You’ve worked in the U.S., you’ve worked in Europe. Obviously, this is a global company. What’s different? 

Klein: Yeah, I mean, first talking about U.S. and Europe. I mean, when we talk about EU union and I guess that what’s many of my peers in Europe also criticizing, we call ourselves union, but then in every country you feel there are different data privacy rules, there are different banking regulations, that it’s not really a union when it comes to our energy grids and Europe. So that’s what we are pushing a lot on the economy side to say, Hey, we need to become a union and every membership country needs to give up a bit now to create a benefit for our European Union. And then the second piece is I also feel the cultural differences. Yeah. So in Europe we have very fast in regulations. We love to regulate, especially Germany we have not a lack of bureaucracy. The point is, I’m not saying that regulations are necessarily bad. It’s just a matter of, you know, don’t overregulate. And I guess the best example is AI. I mean, before we actually created, you know, the first fantastic use cases on how our businesses, our customers to want better. I mean, there was always this question around regulation. And I said, hey, hey, hey, let’s also not regulate to technology, because when you regulate technology and you do something which is not yet done also in the U.S. or in other parts, you actually, you know, kill innovation in Europe. And then the second part I’m all in for regulations, but on the business side, the outcome. We have our values. We want to understand what kind of impact has AI on on our social community, on our workers, on our customers. But let’s talk about that. But don’t don’t regulate to technology because that really hinders the innovation in Europe, which we are anyway lacking, to be honest. 

Brady: Yeah, well, I want to double down on that for a second, because I remember when the privacy legislation came out, GDPR, there was a lot of concern about what would that do for especially for the consumer facing businesses. Have you seen regulation have a negative impact on innovation? Is that what you think is…

Klein: Yes. 

Brady: …the challenge? 

Klein: Yeah. I mean, look, just right now, when you look at all of the startups in the AI space in Europe, like Mistral, we have all of Alpha, we have some others. I mean, for them it’s not like withSAP. I mean we code software, we research everywhere in the world. Actually we have more people in the U.S. than in Europe. We have a big lab in India. So for us, it’s not that punishing, but for young startups where really speed matters, where you need a market to scale, where you need access to data. For them, it’s of course a big blocking issue. If you then regulate, you know, from day one on to technology itself or how to train your algorithms. Or take the GDPR you mentioned. GDPR was actually well intended. The issue is that there was always large gray zones and every data protection officer had a different understanding. And when everyone has a different understanding, you can do nothing anymore because, you know, sometimes people tend, especially in Germany, to be very conservative and then you, you know, you kill again, innovation because data is key for so many things, not only for AI. And that’s you know what I mean with regulation is not bad if you do it in the right way, if there’s some consistency and if there is not an overregulation for sure not on the technology side. 

Brady: Let’s talk about some of the advantages of being a European leader, a European leader of an international business. I’ve lived in different countries myself. I grew up in Scotland. I’m always aware that we in the states don’t get out much sometimes. In Europe you do, simply by virtue of being European and a global business. How do you think you view the landscape maybe a bit differently from some of your U.S. peers? 

Klein: I mean, indeed. I mean, when you start with the geopolitical tensions, they are there for sure and when you then, you know, visiting customers in Asia, all when you also talk to multinationals here in the U.S. who are having a business in China. I mean, they actually ask us, Hey, we are wanting with our supply chain in China, give us the certainty that no matter what is happening, that we can still continue to run our business. And that’s mission critical business if my factories are down in China, it doesn’t help. It’s actually disrupting the whole company. And that I would say from a European perspective, it helps because we need to find solutions. And somehow, you feel a little bit like, you know, stuck in the middle. But on the other hand, yeah, we need to find and we can find solutions. Of course, also talking to our governments, but also then with technology to build those pressures. And then when you are visiting, you know, countries in Southeast Asia, for example, I was just in Kuala Lumpur and others. You see this incredible closed markets and then, you know, but you cannot cover just closed markets only with Christian Kleins and others. So you need to also attract the right people. And I guess there it’s a big plus if you are early, if you also understand the culture, if you can attract the people not only by offering them a great job and a great salary, but also giving them something where they feel okay SAP has somehow an identity in this country that helps a lot. And then the second part what we do is especially well, I would say, is also attracting universities. I mean, here we have great, you know, collaboration and research projects going on with Berkeley or Stanford. But the same we do also in Asia and that also helps to attract talent on a global scale, which is super important for us. 

Brady: So can I dial back even further on your background? I noticed that you have a degree in international business administration, and from that, should I presume that you wanted to be in a leadership role early on in your career? What was your ambition when you were just getting out of school?

Klein: Out of school I have to say, I didn’t have always the best grades. I mean, as every German kid, probably I wanted to become a famous soccer player. That didn’t work out. And I realized that, during my time at the university, and then suddenly I realized, Oh my God, this passion for how business is won. The passion for to understand how [unintelligible], how supply chains are connected, how finance works, how you do analytics, and that really caught my attention. And then I was really fired up to really understand this better and better and better. And then there was a company in the neighborhood called SAP and, Oh, now you can go combine that technology to it. And I said, always to my developers, we are not coding technology for the sake of technology. We are coding technology for our customers, for these businesses. And that really excited me. Don’t ask me why, but I somehow find it super interesting to connect the dots and how the world economy works. Yeah. And then I built my career step by step. And I have to say, this vocational program what we have to spend four months here in the U.S. working for marketing and you go back to university and back and forth, back and forth. It really helped to also shape my network and to apply what I learned at the university in the practical world of SAP. So when I was ready, I said, here I am. I know how to run our systems. You know me. I know how this company works. So this already gives you actually a good start. And when I come here today to New York, I still have friends in Hoboken, which I met, you know, 23 years ago. Yeah. 

Brady: It’s so it’s actually nice. It’s like the British system, that ability to create a Renaissance leader early on. American companies don’t do that necessarily the way they used to. 

Klein: Yeah and look, I feel as a CEO, I always tell people about what is super important. You know next to it helps when you understand your business and your products and so on. What is incredibly important for my eyes is a bridge builder and a problem solver. I mean, every day something pops up differently. And then to understand which people now need to come together to solve that problem. And that’s not only CEO, that’s also for our executives super important. And then to have a network to see how we can solve certain things. And I guess this is what you learn, what I learned very early and it helped me to quote my network. And even today, I sometimes don’t not only know my board and I know is some of the experts everywhere, and that helps me also to solve challenges, but also to get always valuable feedback. 

[Music starts.]

Brady: The majority of Fortune 500 companies have made commitments to reach net zero to address climate change. The challenge, of course, is how to get there. We spoke with Jason Girzadas, the CEO of Deloitte US and the sponsor of this podcast. Here’s what he had to say. 

Jason Girzadas: There’s a broad recognition that the cost of climate change is far greater than the cost of not investing in it. Organizations will continue to utilize technology to move on the journey towards a decarbonized future and a more circular economy. We’re already seeing the benefit of technology through an increase in alternative energy sources. The advances in battery and storage technology are evident. You’re seeing the growth and increased performance of EVs at lower price points. So the impact and value of technology is being felt already, and that’s only going to continue. It’s pretty clear that climate change requires innovations that don’t exist today, but we do think that there will be new opportunities for innovation to be further accelerated through the development of ecosystems around emerging technologies. I think that the narrative is shifting, one from it being a cost and an inconvenience to decarbonize our economy to one where it’s actually a opportunity. 

[Music ends.]

Brady: I think it was about a year ago you added on the chairman role, is that correct? 

Klein: Yes. 

Brady: Does that make any difference or how does that help you in the running of the company to have that additional title? 

Klein: Yeah, look chairman governance is a little bit different. I have 19 people in my supervisory [board]. We want 19 and you have employee representatives take care rightfully about the good and benefits of our employees. And then you have the shareholder side. And then you have the executive board. And so there are some people and as a CEO, you put out a strategy and you need to make sure that the number that this company is successful and you need to really juggle all of these balls. 

Brady: Yeah. 

Klein: And there you know the chairman title helps to say, Yes we discuss. I’m always a friend of, let’s as a team discuss because then I’m sure we are getting the best outcomes but at the end of the day someone should be able to make a decision to move forward. And that is something, you which is then binded to this chairman title. And I’m very thankful that the supervisory board said, Hey, we trust Christian and that he is then also becoming the chairman. 

Brady: Now you mentioned Satya Nadella and some other peers earlier on. When you’re in a role, when you grow up in a company, sometimes it can be easy to see what sort of transformation is needed. It can also be hard to change a culture when you’re part of it. Was it obvious to you in terms of the levers that you’ve used in the past five years to get SAP to where it needs to go? Or how much do you have to almost, in some ways break away from your own mindset, having grown up with very different structure. 

Klein: Yeah. I mean, there’s always big talk about why diversity is important. And I feel where diversity is super important is also to get different perspectives. So as I said early on in Southeast Asia, we cannot, you know, make this successful only with Christians and Kleins. And so here on the board, what I really learned is that, of course, you know the company extremely well but then there are certain elements in the business transformation, which is pretty new to the company. And then I learned by bringing in also other people, different backgrounds than me, coming from different geographies to me from different companies. For example, Microsoft, they have seen some of that. So it’s not necessary to run into this issue when you have people around you who can tell you, Hey, we have seen this movie before, maybe Christian, we should go that way. And I had a lot of these aha effects during the last four years, and I learned how important it is to really have different perspective. You cannot sit 100 people around you, but a few with a diverse perspective on a topic definitely helps. So, you know, I guess it’s really important when you put together your team that you have the right mix of people, understanding the company, understanding our customers that then, but then especially in the transformation to get also some people from outside in will definitely help. 

Brady: And that first 1.0 transformation was really about the cloud which almost feels a little bit like table stakes now. I mean, do you think is there much more to do on the cloud with regard to I can’t think of many companies out there that aren’t fully embedded as being cloud first. Am I wrong about that? 

Klein: No, you’re not wrong. I mean, in the public sector, especially in Europe, they are still somehow a little bit hung up on we need to control everything. But, you know, I mean, in the cloud, I mean, what is a key priority for us is why now, of course, will always be is cybersecurity. But especially now what I everything what happens in Russia, etc. I mean that topic is now was always important will be important. The second part of it because there are so many geopolitical tensions. I mean, what we have to do is we are wanting global businesses in 150 countries. So just sovereign cloud data privacy is still a topic where we have to work on also together with our hyperscale partners, etc. But of course it’s more or less table stakes. And now it’s about, you know, how can we make use of all of this new technology now actually to run our customers even better? 

Brady: Which brings us to AI, of course, And we’d be remiss not to talk about, well, what does it mean in the context of what you’re doing? Obviously, it’s deeply embedded in how you’re transforming SAP itself, also how you work with customers? Talk a little bit about that. 

Klein: And I mean, look, I mean, some of the generative AI technology as an evolution of AI hit the market or even before when we did the research, a lot of people asked me, Hey, why is SAP not coding, you know, large language models or actually is even building, you know, more data centers? And, you know, when you look at SAP, what we are very good at, we have finance, data, supply chain data, HR data. We have a ton of data. What the large language models can’t do so well, if you would ask as a CFO, give me my P&L and give me all my sustainability regulations next to my general ledger and make sure that at earnings I present ESG in the right way and as well as my financials, and put some analysis to it so that all the regulators are happy, this is what no large language model can do. But here comes SAP, we have all of that data. So when you’re working with our digital core pilot tool, you know, you get all the business data and we are open…

Brady: That’s the net zero as a service. 

Klein: Exactly. Exactly. Or when you will ask, how can I produce this part of my product the best at a cost effective way, but also in the most sustainable way? And please make sure that this spare part is right on time in this factory. That’s SAP. And this is where we are building a foundational AI model where we are pushing a lot of business data and giving it some mean, building knowledge class, and then making sure by connecting it to the large language models, that we can do. So for example, with Microsoft, we announced a deeper integration with Copilot. So if you ask a question around a supplier or your P&L or your pipeline, you always get all the non-structural data and Teams and 365 and you get it combined and harmonized with our business data. And that is, you know, actually where we are very strong. 

Brady: I read, I think it was $100 million in savings that you’re expecting through automation. Is that correct? 

Klein: Actually, this year we actually expect a bit more, $200 million this year. That will, of course, be, when you look at the rate for next year, this will be even bigger. And it helps us. I mean, look, in order to be credible to our customers, I mean, we also have to prove the technology one has from SAP runs SAP. That is our mantra. And of course by implying it, we see I mean, you know, all this document checks, compliance checks on travel, on supplier contacts, customer contacts. We can screen this with our solutions, with our gen AI use cases. There are many more. And then of course, there’s the digital assistant, you know, creating a profile in SuccessFactors or filling out a sourcing template or hiring template not needed anymore. Joule does it for you and that will become also our new user interface. 

Brady: So from a cultural perspective, that can inspire both excitement and fear in your employees. 

Klein: Oh yes. 

Brady: So first of all, how is the mood around this, you know, degree of change, which is pretty dramatic, and how do you manage that? 

Klein: Yeah, I mean, look, this is again, as with every change and transformation, communication is key. And, you know, sitting together with the people, explaining them the impact. And also not lying to them. I mean, will gen AI or AI in general change jobs. Absolutely. Will it maybe even, you know, remove some jobs? I would say yes. Will we create other jobs? Absolutely, yes, as well. If we wouldn’t apply AI and don’t code AI as a technology company, we would die. But the fact that we are doing it now really well will make sure that we are going. And of course, we will also hire people because in sales and engineering. But you know that the jobs itself is how you code software will change. And so next to the communication, it’s also key on training and enablement. So we are making driving a big program where we also then doing a lot of enablement sessions, coding sessions, the way how we sell, the way how we market and really changing our platform files and linking our training and enablement programs to that. 

Brady: You know, I’m always curious when somebody is in a leadership role like yourself with so many people, everybody wants a piece of your time. Life is about choices. When you think about the priorities you have, what do you wish you could spend more time on that you’ve just learned that you can’t to be a more effective leader?

Klein: I look, I mean, my team would now tell you I’m not really good always in saying no sometimes. I mean, and indeed, I mean, time management is incredibly important also for the company. I mean, I cannot spend all my time internally. I can also not always spend all my time with customers as much as I would like to. And so to find the right mix and then also in private life, I mean, here when I’m now traveling in the U.S. for two weeks, I mean it’s hard when you’re here the kids are… 

Brady: How old are your kids?

Klein: They are three and seven. So they are asking, so Emma asks why you are gone again? That’s hard but you have to then also prioritize. So when there is no school, summer holidays with Maximilian, then I said, Hey, this one and a half weeks, please protect it no matter what. And I became a bit more straight on that. Yeah. To not say yes to everything then, to give the family and the kids some priorities. And I guess that’s very important to find that right balance and as hard as it is, but then going at five in the morning in the gym in Palo Alto is something which is hard but is important for me because I find a good inner balance and I feel I’m starting the day much better. And I feel also this personal health is something what you should really look into and care about. 

Brady: I mean, I’ve never met a leader who doesn’t really understand the athletic part of the job. 

Klein: Absolutely. From an energy perspective, the mind, the mindset. You need that. Yeah. 

Brady: Now, you mentioned that you spoke with Satya. I’m curious, you must get a lot of inspiration from a lot of different people, customers, peers, maybe frenemies, whoever. Anybody that you’ve drawn particular inspiration from as a leader? Named or unnamed? Just advice. 

Klein: I mean, look, I mean, this is not a secret. I mean, when I became the CEO, I mean, given that the careers and also the cloud transformation, you know, of Microsoft, it, you know, was of course, for me, it was key to talk to Satya was about our two companies and how we move forward. And then, of course, followed, with I mean, we have great partnerships everywhere. Shantanu [Narayen] from Adobe was born in Germany, obviously, you know as well. I’m you know, I’m in one board at Adidas and that is I mean, of course I love sports.

Brady: It’s a different industry. 

Klein: It’s a different industry but it’s so interesting to see how this company runs the transformation in the industry. So I take a lot of lessons learned away and say, Hey, how do they do certain things? How we do it? That’s for me also a good, you know, a way of seeing, Hey, are do we balance things in the right way in the executive board, in the supervisory board. So these things gives you a lot of input. This morning, I’m now the chair of Generation Unlimited from UNICEF here. It’s fantastic. And we want to upskill millions of young people and find them jobs, especially in places in the world where they don’t have the access to education. Look, in technology we are short of talent. And this is the time which I really want to invest because I get so much inspiration and ideas. I mean there are people from the private and from the public sector sitting there from UNICEF, that is good because it also has a benefit for me personally, I can grow. And of course, it also has benefits for SAP because I can collect a lot of new ideas.

Brady: And we hire differently now, right? We hire more for skills, for potential. I mean, people talk about jobs not that don’t exist now as being, you know, hot commodity two, three years from now. So the speed, keeping up with the speed of change must be quite difficult. Can you give me a sense, help us see around the corner a bit as to where SAP is headed. I mentioned of course, net zero as a service, that’s something you’re talking about this week. How do you think the company is going to look different or is the value proposition going to look different two years from now? You pick whatever timeline. 

Klein: I mean, first I would say our customers already laugh that, when they are now moving to the cloud with SAP and transforming their business models with SAP, that this big heavy, cost intensive projects will be go away. I mean, this is very important because we ship every quarter. Now AI use cases which we infuse right into the business of our customers. So that is great. Now looking ahead three to five years, what is going to change? I mean, there’s quantum, for example, coming and we believe quantum can absolutely change how we do logistics today and doing it in a more sustainable way, the traceability will completely move to a new level. I mean this is SAP what we do, but it has a massive impact on the world economy. Or when you think about how businesses will optimize themselves. I mean we are working on stuff where the system itself realizes, Hey, your procurement, your manufacturing process, your processes, they run a little bit inefficient. Here we have the benchmark and the system itself self optimized system workflows at the end, of course, still as a human being who can say, yes, I want that or I don’t want that. But there will be a lot, you know, what is coming on self automation, which is just not there today. 

And then you mentioned sustainability. I mean, we are just at the beginning. When you’re SAP and 80% of the world’s transactions are touching your system and you help almost every customer to offer to put together a financial ledger, then think about it. Every material goes to SAP. So we cannot only track and trace your financials or your productivity. We can also track and trace your come. Now it comes we have a network of over 17 million suppliers, so we cannot only track your own carbon footprint, we can track it in scope two and scope three as well, because there’s an 80% chance that your suppliers and your other suppliers, you know, down to the raw material is also doing their business with SAP. And suddenly you have the sustainability data at your hand where you can manage this tradeoffs. On the one side still running a profitable business. On the other side, drive the necessary transformation to be more sustainable. And I guess this is what we can do, what our vision is, where we are coding towards to, and, yes, it will come. 

Brady: What are the qualities you look for when you’re hiring in your senior team? And obviously, let’s take the prowess you know, CFO, you want financial expertise. Is there anything more fundamental that you found is an indicator of success? 

Klein: I mean, look, some lessons learned when we hire or we acquire companies, we definitely look into the culture. And, because no one is bigger than SAP in the company and, you have to have self-confidence that is not a bad thing. Not at all. But, you know, you still have to be a team. And we can only drive great outcomes if we are a team. The second part is, of course, what we are looking at is of course, to hire really the best experts in the different fields. And this is why we are really also engaging with universities, etc. And also me starting as an intern, what I really like is when you actually attract a young talent at a very early stage, they have a chance to get to know SAP. We have a chance to get to know them. And so the likelihood that we are really, hiring maybe the next engineering board member is much higher rather than hire someone that you hardly don’t know. And so, yeah, these are the elements what we are trying really to grow our talents internally, attract them early, and then, of course, have a very good education enablement system. And then last but not least, what I really feel is what is super important, what I benefited is rotation. Yeah, you should not only build your career if you want to really move up, there’s no nothing wrong building a functional expert career. But if you want to be a functional leader, becoming a board member and this was your aspiration, you have to see something. It doesn’t hurt if you code that you also have seen a customer in your life and to see how our software runs their businesses and vice versa. And so that is I guess very important that we then also have to write education programs. 

Brady: Yeah, well it creates a learning mindset too, doesn’t it? Because you’re constantly having to learn new skills and… 

Klein: Exactly. 

Brady: And such. Is there anything else on your radar you want to put on ours in terms of just what you’re thinking about within SAP or otherwise right now? 

Klein: I would just hope for when you see how many companies here in the U.S. benefited from the globalization and from open markets and free trade, and when you see how we are heavily moving backwards from that, I mean, that keeps me really up at night because I feel everyone will suffer. There’s no winners in that. And no matter if it’s on the public, on the private sector, we all have to do, I guess, a better job in building those bridges. And I just hope, especially, you know, with everything you know, in here and next year when we have a late summer election that we really coming closer together. And then, of course, between your U.S. and Europe, I mean, you know, we benefited a lot, you know, and so I feel that we are building stronger ties now. 

Brady: Yeah. Excellent. Well, thank you for joining us. 

Klein: Yeah, thanks for having me. 

Brady: Leadership Next is edited by Nicole Vergalla. Our audio engineer is Natasha Ortiz. Our producer is Mason Cohn and our executive producer is Hallie Steiner. Our theme is by Jason Snell. Leadership Next is a production of Fortune Media.

Leadership Next episodes are produced by Fortune‘s editorial team. The views and opinions expressed by podcast speakers and guests are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of Deloitte or its personnel. Nor does Deloitte advocate or endorse any individuals or entities featured on the episodes.